"LaVeyan" Satanists Against Belief and Reverance of Satan?

[Mitokht]

This was an interesting statement made on a Satanic forum recently that got my attention. Because of it's nature, I present it here for your opinions and comments. I have edited this from the original to leave out irrelevant information.

The proposition was stated that Satanists practicing the "LaVeyan" variety of Satanism are, due to LaVey's condemnation of diabolatry, against actual belief in Satan and reverence for him.

My Reply: I can say from a personal perspective that I think you are right. I would however, like to clarify this. I am not a CoS member, however if someone had to put me in a category they'd call me "LaVeyan". I hold no spiritual beliefs whatsoever, and you can tell by what I have written that I don't take those who do too seriously.

The thing is this, I've experienced strange phenomena before on quite a few occasions, and have talked many times with others who have as well. Things that cannot be explained without making an excuse to console the mind facing the unknown.

In the ritual chamber, the gods, demons, spirits etc. are within us. That is my belief. I think they are not external manifestations but within us, and some are able to project them. If only, perhaps, in their own minds.

That being said, if a rational person who knows this wants to call them demons, spirits, etc. of "Satan" (his/her self), for adding to the ritual or simply for fun, that makes sense to me, as a "LaVeyan" Satanist, and there are a few others I know of that would agree with this I'm sure.

The truth is, in my opinion, that we don't know. You can see, hear, feel, smell, and perhaps taste all manor of strange phenomena, but how does one prove it's a manifestation of the Satan in Christian Mythology?

Without solid proof, empirical evidence, the answer would be backed by that universal enemy of rationality: Faith.

This is where I part from the "true believers" crowd. It ends up becoming a replica of sorts of all faith-based religions - something I inherently despise. And the worst is when we have these fanatics talking about Satan winning the "Apocalypse". :x

That is the line where I become disgusted. When science and reason are replaced with religion and faith.

[Fenyra]

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but personally I keep a healthy level of both science and faith in what I believe and still retain my traditional values. Do I honestly think that we're the only sort of 'intelligent life force' in the universe? No. Do I think that they might have some contact with people? Perhaps. I am, however, a firm believer in the soul, that not all phenomena are caused by the mind. Do I have proof of that? No. I've encountered a lot of things I don't look for, don't try for, that can't be explained. What I do know and can say for a fact is that my experiences with these phenomena have significantly increased since I became a believer in Satan, and that by believing in him as a life force of sorts gives me a rather pleasant feeling. Perhaps he's just a manifestation of my mind, completely made out of what I put in, but personally, I believe that by keeping some degree of faith and an open mind is the only way we can get answers to some questions such as the one "Does Satan exist as an entity?". I'm a sciences student and as such I search for whatever answers I can from a scientific standpoint, but I don't discredit any of my more spiritual experiences either.

[Leo-Gonzo Satanist]

I'm pretty much with Mitokht on this. I will say that I have had brushes with what would be labled paranormal experieces but that's all they were, brushes that left no definable footprint and quite frankly after chasing shadows for years I'm content to just enjoy this life and it's wonders rather than waste time speculating on areas where NO ONE has gotten definitive answers.
Is there a Satan or God or Shiva or (place mane here)? Dunno and don't care . If such thing(s) exist they did not leave a clear enough trail to find them so we will never know. What I do know is we have pizza, beer, boobies, and Three Stooges marathons to enjoy. I'm gonna run with what we have rather than speculate about very loose maybes.

[Eric T. Schuetz]

Interesting process of thought with this thread. I am of a Modern breed of Satanist. I do not classify myself as "LaVeyan" simply because I can't exactly agree with everything. However, I am not of the mindset that there is a literal existence of spiritual beings of a high power. In regards to spirits and "ghosts", I do not disbelieve in them.

How can this be possible? Well, I won't say we have a "soul", but we are made of matter. Einstein proved that energy and matter are essentially the same thing, just different manifestations. When matter is "destroyed" it becomes energy. Energy can convert to matter when in a "stored" state.

I enjoy the idea that when our physical element dies, it converts back to energy and returns to a central source. That source is where everything goes back to, and comes from. Regardless of what that energy converts to, it all comes from one place. Is this source a "Higher Intelligence"? Hell no. However, that source does retain all the knowledge of all those that returned to it.

Again, how can you explain this Eric? Easy. Energy carries information. If you don't believe me, then the internet is a figment of your imagination. The internet is a perfect example of energy carrying information. Another one? Cell phones. Last I checked, we all don't have little wires connected between each and every phone we call. One more? Radio. Yeah, like the one in your car...unless you car around shrunken band members in your car trunk.

More or less, this is NOT an answer for a God or Devil, but an answer to "Life, the Universe, and Everything". More specifically, the Answer to the question to the meaning of life is 42.

[Fenyra]

My thoughts on energy in this sense are sort of opposite yours, Rev. I've always thought of the soul as being some other sort of energy, one that's not just heat or electricity or whatever. Most of my contemplating is a little hard to explain, but basically, I figure the soul is a kind of energy that pushes us. Once the soul is removed, we die. You can't create life, with the exclusion of cloning but that all works with sex cells so I think that it's completely fair to assume life is created through cloning in the same way life is created the good ole natural way.

I don't think that the soul feels, thinks, sees, or anything the same as we do when we are alive, because the majority of that comes from chemicals and other sorts of energies (like electric pulses in neurons), but I do think that there is some existence to the soul. I don't believe in people as 'ghosts' as in hazy humanoid forms of what we once were, but I do think that they can manifest as that in our minds. And yes, I do believe that this soul carries information, though trying to convert it to a way that our physical minds can understand it is a little more complicated.

On a side note, I feel like the minority here.

[Eric T. Schuetz]

EXACTLY!!!!

The idea is actually, and I am going to get flack here, much like "The Force" from, yes, Star Wars. Now, to expand on that...

Everything in the universe is indeed connected. Not just the living organisms, but the inanimate objects as well. Everything produces energy of some form. Everything is made of matter. Again, back to the idea that matter and energy are interchangeable, just different states of existence.

With this connection, information is carried over. Prove it? Reincarnation. Rare occasions, the information comes over in large bunches, rather than broken down to small "instinctual" bits. To tie in what Fenyra said, which makes sense, the current state of the human mind can't comprehend the information the Universe sends along to us through each existence. On our conscious level, it comes off as "instinctual". Something we "just seem to know."

[Fenyra]

You always hear about unity and the universal mind when you enter into meditative stuff (at least, from my experience that's what I've found.) But that would make the soul each our unique chunk of energy, just like our body is a completely unique set of genetic code. Like pieces to a puzzle, or threads in a weave, or whatever analogy you'd like to use.

Btw, my earlier comment about feeling a in the minority, I didn't mean it as a bad thing. This is an open Satanic community for a variety of beliefs and I am representing a different view. Just wanted to throw that out there so people would know I'm not complaining.

[Eric T. Schuetz]

How would that bit of "universal energy" be exclusive to the single individual? I see where you are going with this. If the universe is indeed connected, then why isn't everything uniform and indistinguishable from one another? Is this where you are going with it?

Let's assume it is the direction you are shooting for. Think of each letter and number you see displayed before you on the screen of your computer monitor. Each letter just pops up on that screen as you hit each corresponding button. How, though? It is based on signal strength that causes reactions on the circuit board. Each button activates different sets of 1's and 0's.

How does this relate as an analogy to each of us, and the universe itself? Each person is essentially "wired" differently. Sure, we all "plug into" the same outlets, but it is our transistors, resistors, processors, and fuses that make the current different.

Think of the genetic code as the base blueprints for our personal selves. Sure, the blue prints are almost identical from person to person, but there are minor structural differences, and programs that alter the designation of the individual in question.

Spiritual people want to take the science away from the concept of what is the "Soul". Those that shun spirituality disregard the soul as nothing more than dogmatic mumbo jumbo myth. Personally, I find it as neither. It is something that can be explained. It isn't something that is hidden away in side the body. It permeates the body and is literally a part of it. Take away the "soul", and you take away the energy source that fuels the body.

[Fenyra]

Oh I know it's not arguing this is all sharing of opinions on my, your, and Rev's parts. I completely agree with you guys about the whole DNA thing. I think it goes back the the puzzle analogy, where everyone's a piece that fits into the same puzzle, each of us is a different piece and has our own place, but yet we're all connected and the same too, though life is significantly more complex than any jigsaw puzzle. It's true, inanimate objects have their own energy, though I don't think that it's really comparable to the energy of what fuels us, the soul if you will.

And so, thinking along the lines of the life force that can be explained even if it hasn't, it's not so strange to think of Satan as being something more than imaginary. Perhaps he's exactly what we make of him, or could be just some other sort of life energy that is separate from ours in the same way that our energy is separate from that of a tree (which you cannot deny has its own source of life energy). I'm not saying that this is truth, but when you look at it like that it's easier to believe in him as a kind of entity. I take from the JOS in my belief of him as not being the Christian beast that they made him out to be, that he's Enki from Sumerian beliefs and has been around since before Christianity, but that may be taking things a little further than anyone else would care agree with me on. However, the phrase "man made god" comes to mind here. Perhaps his energy is nothing but a combination of what generations of people have made him from the start, even in ancient times? Perhaps that can be said for all of the 'gods'? I still think that there's some other life forces out in the universe somewhere who are also a part of this great universal puzzle, but that may or may not be related to this at all. Satan, though, whether human minds pieced him together (making a thoughtform) or if he came from somewhere else, I do believe is an external life force outside of my own mind.

[Leo-Gonzo Satanist]

This is all very nice and head games are fun.However at the end of the day this is all speculation. And to be fair I have done my fair share of speculating. But... I, over the years have seen LaVey's wisdom when he calls on the Satanist to adhere to "Vital Existence". While our heads are in the clouds, the clock is ticking and we're missing the show. Better time spent with what we can see, feel, smell, and touch, rather than waste precious time trying to figure out what no one yet has...or will.

[Mitokht]

Glad to see so much thought going into this. Interesting for sure.

Morrison reminds me of another Morrison.

"Let it roll, all night long. . ."

;-)

[Jesse]

LaVey couldnt even make up his mind. Most accounts say that he was spiritual, slightly theistic at first, and later Atheistic.

[Leo-Gonzo Satanist]

Yeah, LaVey did talk out of both sides of his mouth on the issue. However, As in all things LaVey, choose what works for you and walk your own way.